The Future of Neurotechnology: Brain Fog, Burnout & Peak Performance – Psychiatrist Cody Rall Explains

Cody Rall 

Whereas psychedelics I think tend to be the most helpful are for people that probably gravitate towards you or I and take our programs, which is they tend to be type A, very rigid thought processes, have difficulty making changes, high anxiety because they’re always worried about certain things. And what we’re finding with the psychedelics is they tend to be a reset, not only just in subjective experience of life, but actually in the actual brain activity.

Lorne Brown 

By listening to the Coherence Code Podcast, you agree to not use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition, either in yourself or others. Consult your own physician or healthcare provider for any medical issues that you may be having. This entire disclaimer also applies to any guests or contributors to the podcast. Welcome to the Coherence Code Podcast. The Coherence Code Podcast. Where we explore how the mind and body work together so you can move from stress and inner conflict to clarity, calm and alignment. My name is Lorne Brown. I’m a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine and a clinical epitherapist. And through my work, I’ve seen that healing happens when we remove what gets in the way and allow the body and the nervous system to do what they’re designed to do to heal. Welcome to the Coherence Code Podcast.

Today I’m joined by medical doctor Cody Rall. He’s a Navy trained psychiatrist, a former US Navy officer, and he has a focus on brain performance, recovery, and resilience. He’s also the founder of Tech for Psych and he works at the intersection of psychiatry and neurotechnology, exploring how tools like EEG and red light therapy can actually measure and hopefully improve brain function. He’s also the host of the Cody Rall Podcast where he breaks down the measurable patterns behind focus, brain fatigue and performance. And since I like my gadgets too, I’m also curious how he helps people use these tools properly, not just collect them because I do have a selection of things that I’ve collected. So I’m hoping we’re going to talk about Cody’s coaching programs today as well. Dr. Cody, welcome to the podcast.

Cody Rall 

Thanks, Lorne. Thanks for having me.

Lorne Brown 

I don’t know your story. I definitely have listened to a lot of your podcasts and are preparing for our episode today. And as I said off air, I think we kind of have this kinship because I’m told by my patients he’s the boy with the best toys and I just got a cup this week. I’ll hold it up here, but somebody made a cup with my name on it and they list off things and the very last one that you can’t see, but it says loves his gadgets. So even my patients have noticed that. I wanted to know how you got started in this space because you’re Navy trained psychiatrist, but you’re doing a lot of stuff on neurotechnology and sometimes people have their own personal experiences. So was it just curiosity? Was it for your performance or were you even trying to solve something personally that got you into this area?

Cody Rall 

Well, when I was in high school, I had a real close friend’s father commit side after he suffered from debilitating OCD for many years and then decided to go into medicine to help people. And as I went through my training, became fascinated with psychiatry and just felt like it was the Wild West, so to speak, in terms of being able to define what was actually happening in the brain with metrics and ended up going to Walter Reed in Washington DC there, Bethesda, Maryland, just north of Washington, DC. It’s across from NIH. They’ve got some of the most advanced brain imaging technologies in the world there and were just fascinated to learn that they were discovering new things all the time when they took a look at very high-end brain scans. So I started a YouTube channel where I was talking about the crossover between biology and psychology and about then some neurotech companies had been just getting started, ones like Emotive and Muse, mostly wearable EEG technology companies.

And that’s where I really started talking about the gizmos and devices on YouTube and wanting to do tech reviews, but also tutorials about how I felt people could best use them to improve their meditation, sleep, and mental health overall. And that’s really what led me down the path of doing YouTube and gadgets full-time, so to speak, and developing a coaching program around that.

Lorne Brown 

All right. So you had some of your own personal experience with this. You’re still practicing. Do you still practice as well?

Cody Rall

I have a small telemedicine practice where I keep up my psychiatry prescription chops, but that’s becoming less and less of my work these days as the coaching program develops.

Lorne Brown 

Well, this is where I’m also really interested in talking to you because our listeners, the people I see in my clinical practice, I’m going to give you three broad categories. They either have anxiety and overwhelm or they’re fatigued and burnt out, loss of will, or they just want to reach peak performance. They want to achieve more and hit their potential. So this is kind of the area they want. And when they come to me, the advice they’re getting is from people that basically say, “Go move to a mountain away from everybody.” And in my practice, and that’s why I asked you this question, I like to talk to people where you may have a wife and kids or a spouse and kids, you have a job, you have bills to pay. It’s really nice to talk to somebody where you’re living in this world and the people you’re working with are living in this world because if you told me to go live somewhere in the mountains for six months, I think I would do pretty well also.

So I want to talk about … So that’s why I asked that question, just what’s your practice like? So I’m glad you still got your hands in it.

Cody Rall

Well, I’m seeing something very similar where originally I thought the people that were seeking out neurotech devices were looking for more stimulation and performance enhancement during the day. But it turns out the more that I work with people and talk with people, it’s actually sort of the opposite of that. It’s like, where do we find our recharge? Where do we find our rejuvenation so that we can feel balanced and be able to operate at our full capacity because we’ve actually been able to get the proper amount of rest and get some of the stimulation out of our lives during the day.

Lorne Brown 

So the first thing I wanted to go into is that a big part of my population I see in my clinical practice are those that are trying to grow a family or perimenopausal and menopausal. And so this is my high anxiety group and on the outside they look wonderful. They got the picket fence, they got the nicest cars, the good clothes. They did everything society said they should do. So on the outside, they look like they have it going on. They are performers and contributors to this world, but when I sit down with them inside, that’s not what’s going on. They’re pretty burnt down and exhausted. So can we measure this? Because they can come in and tell me their story. I have a question, with all the data you’ve been collecting and the people you get to coach with, are you able, with the tech you have, able to measure these people that may look good on the outside, but on the inside you see they don’t have resilience anymore?

Cody Rall 

There’s a lot of tools available now and of course it always comes into the context of have you done a proper intake and ask them the right amount of questions because that subjective experience can become really important for analyzing the objective data, which would be like sleep tracking or even on QEEG, for example. But what I find is that QEEG is pretty variable between person to person. There are certainly some trends that you can pick out and one that comes to mind is if you ask someone to sit down and do a calm, cold collected quantitative EEG scan using them to use headband, for example, with the clinical tool set that mindlift offers, you might see a lot of high beta activity even when they’re just sitting there still and this could be indicative of racing mind and anxiety. So that’s one example that might come up.

But other things that we might see are abnormal sleep patterns. They think that they’re getting eight hours of high quality sleep, but it turns out that they’re tossing and turning all night, or maybe they have sleep apnea. And there are some devices that are FDA approved to diagnose sleep apnea. Technically, most of the wearables are not, but there are trends that we can pick out. So it’s really a case by case basis. And again, it’s really going to depend on that clinical intake interview, which is why I think that health coaching as an industry is developing the way it is because even if you have the data, it’s difficult to interpret and you need to put it into the context of what’s happening in the day-to-day life of the client or patient. I think it’s a trend of times to come where traditional clinical medicine of going in and getting snapshots of brain scans or doing sleep studies is, I wouldn’t say on its way out because most people are still doing them, but the future is gaining a lot of momentum where you have health wellness coaching from doctors that are doing it as a coaching practice because they’re kind of starving for that interaction with clients and patients as well because they want to get out of the traditional medicine model, which is terrible for chronic disease and more into the health, wellness and coaching model where they’re seeing trends over time and making small adjustments from day to day, whether that be what time you go to bed, the quality of your sleep, different influences that might be affecting you in diet and exercise.

And so it’s a very comprehensive picture, but there are little bits and pieces and clues throughout the wearable data, but also in just what the client is telling you to detect burnout. It’s not going to be, I can just do a QEEG and tell you have burnout without knowing anything about your history. It needs to be a balanced and comprehensive intake. So there’s little bits and pieces there to answer your question, but it’s not like I can just do one test and diagnose you with burnout, so to speak.

Lorne Brown

So with your coaching programs that you do, have you seen anything in this population? They tell you the story where they’re just not feeling right, their window of tolerance has changed, they’re not recovering like they used to. So they’re telling you their subjective experience. Do you have data that you think collaborates with that you were expecting to see when you look at them like, “Oh my God, they’re always in high beta,” or is there anything that surprised you or even changed how you understand burnout and performance issues?

Cody Rall 

I think one interesting metric that’s on the mindlift reports that I often see with burnout is this term called alpha response. So when you have your eyes open and your eyes closed, the amount of alpha is supposed to change significantly. And one of the things that I’ve learned after looking at thousands of these brain scans is that one of the things that is most important for managing burnout is brain flexibility. So you can take a snapshot and be at a certain mix of brain amplitudes, but ultimately what’s going to be really important is that you’re able to shift those according to demand. So if you’re shifting into attention, are you increasing more beta brainwaves to be able to focus compared to theta brainwaves, which is more drowsiness and relaxed? Or are you able to modulate alpha depending on if you’re paying attention to what’s in front of you versus having internal self-referential thought?

So there are some metrics on these brainwave reports that reflect how well you’re able to disengage from tasks and rest and relax when you need to. Are you on when you need to be on or are you in rest and relax when you need to rest and relax? And it attempts to measure proxies of that by having you open and close your eyes, but that actually can be a pretty good mirror of how well your brain is able to modulate brainwave activity based on if you’re in go mode or if you’re in rest and relax mode. So going back to fight or flight versus rest and relax, there are proxies in the brain data itself that mirrors that. And if you think about what burnout is quite often is just being in go mode all the time instead of being able to engage when you want to engage and rest when you need to rest.

And so I think that the population that you’re talking about likely has a lot of difficulty with that, right? It’s revealing the fact that they’ve been burning the candle at both ends for many years and that this is sort of the final straw where even more their ability to disengage has been compromised and it’s revealing what’s been going on for years.

Lorne Brown

And this is where I think your coaching program kind of interrupts that habitual of being in high beta, overwhelmed, sympathetic, and helping them regulate again. So what I’m hearing, and it sounds like this ability to adapt, that’s the issue, to pivot, to adapt. And I know from my own personal experience, like I got into this medicine for health issues and I got into all the brain tech stuff because I had debilitating anxiety out of nowhere. Life was great and I don’t have it anymore, but it was a bizarre thing. And one thing I have awareness to, I don’t know if it was when I was in the healing stage of it or post, but it became very aware that when I had time off, I was not recovering. Although I had no work in front of me, I had no task, I had no external stress, my body was not in a restful mode. And so you said something that I think we want to emphasize and tell me if this makes sense. When you think of heart rate variability, that is that we’re measuring a high HRV is the ability to go between sympathetic and parasympathetic, correct?

And I think I know you’re familiar with the NeuroVIZR, I’ve interviewed Garnet Dupuis. I don’t know if it’s his term or if it’s a real term, he calls it brain signaling variability and that seems to be the same idea. Can the brain adapt under change? Can you go to detached alpha fairly quickly when you just don’t need to do anything? Is that kind of what I’m hearing? Can you put your body into recovery and can you switch between focus and being calm?

Cody Rall 

Yeah. I think that what’s fascinating is like we’ve been developing for the past hundred years with blood tests where we have all these different measures of free lipids, cholesterol, albumin, and how much debate that’s spawned over the years with everything from like the food pyramid to exercise. I think that the same thing is happening with wearables where we’re starting to get all these data points from wearables, but the actual reflection of what they mean is up for debate. And that’s kind of what’s honestly exciting about the field right now is that because we’re doing things like measure HRV with watches now or getting some more of the gold standard ways of measuring HRV or BO2 max or alpha brainwaves or sleep spindles over the night, all these things are going to contribute to our understanding of what our physiology is doing throughout the day. So although I think that these metrics are very interesting as a provider, at the end of the day, we want to be delivering practical advice for people on how they can actually improve.

And so what I’ve found is that the data teaches you something about yourself, but more importantly, it actually makes you invest in your own health because at the end of the day, it’s the emotional investment to making change that really creates transformation. And so I do feel that if you show people different brainwave maps or HRV, it’ll encourage them to do one of the more important things, which is don’t drink alcohol, stop eating a couple hours before bed so that your HRV is high and your resting heart rate is low so you get good restorative sleep. These simple practices of high quality sleep, nutritious diets that aren’t filled full of junk food and getting exercise are going to really transform your life. And I know it’s easier said than done, but I do find that the metrics are a catalyst for that discussion and get people to emotionally invest into taking care of themselves.

Lorne Brown 

You used the word catalyst here to accelerate things and I wanted to think about this tech. So I’m going to share some of the tech I have on my table and talk about non-ordinary states as well because psychedelics are a big thing right now and most of the guests that I have had on my podcast, they think of it as an opportunity to let you know what’s available to you and then go and do the work. You’ve got to develop discipline and a practice. Don’t chase this performance or don’t lean into the psychedelics on a weekly basis like some people do. It’s a couple times. And I’m curious your thoughts on the wearable tech because some of these things can give you and where it’s going can give you that euphoria where you feel at peace, you’re feeling bliss and joy, but you don’t actually have a practice to it.

And so I’m curious, if you’re cheating, you’re cheating yourself, but if you’re using it as a catalyst, so rather than having to go live in a mountain or a cave for 40 years to get to this state of peace and enlightenment, you can live in this world and do things to support and catalyst. So catalyst is to support, to accelerate. I’m wondering, can we cheat? Can we cheat this? Can we get to this non-ordinary develop this peace and joy without having a daily practice? What’s your take thus far from your experience since you’ve been playing with all these gadgets?

Cody Rall 

My take is that certain practices like meditation you should be doing every day to increase your ability to have what I call cognitive control, control over your mind as well as you can. There should be some kind of emotional release practice that you have. And I do teach that in my coaching program. There’s a great book called Letting Go by Dr. David Hawkins, who’s psychiatrist that recently passed away that talks about this revisiting of past trauma and letting those emotions come up and bubble out. Because the idea is that we have suppressed trauma, it builds up like a tea kettle and that steam comes out in various manifestations, whether that be alcoholism or substance abuse or anger towards your family. So having some kind of release mechanism is really important. I believe that you can develop meditative practices where you have that release more often so that you sort of keep your mental CPU space a little bit more freed up to engage in creative activities.

So a daily meditation practice for me has been extremely helpful and I do as much as I can to encourage my clients to follow that as well. I do find that as with any industry, meditation’s more of a supplement instead of a medicine, right? So people tend to lean more towards, I wouldn’t say the word is magic pill mentality, but it’s not a magic pill. But I do notice that when I look at the interest in certain interventions like red light therapy or transcranial direct stimulation, people tend to gravitate towards that side of things more than neurofeedback, for example, because neurofeedback is kind of a workout, a muscle for your brain and it takes a lot of effort versus like, “Hey, I’m just going to throw on this device and have red light stimulate my brain and everything’s going to be fixed for me. ” I don’t find my clients say that or believe that.

I just notice trends in consumer behavior because I’m watching everything from a pretty high level on YouTube taking a look at traffic and who’s buying what and whatnot. But to get back to your question was I do think that psychedelics can be quite helpful for a lot of people. They need to be used with caution, especially if you have risks for schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Whereas psychedelics I think tend to be the most helpful is for people that probably gravitate towards you or I and take our programs, which is they tend to be type A, very rigid thought process, have difficulty making changes, high anxiety because they’re always worried about certain things. And what we’re finding with the psychedelics is they tend to be a reset, not only just in subjective experience of life, but actually in the actual brain activity, brainwave variability, there are a lot of brain connectome studies that show that the way that the brain communicates to itself on a circuit level shifts during and after the psychedelic experience.

And I think that that’s actually something that we’ll be tracking more regularly with wearables. I mean, I would not recommend a heavy psychedelic experience more than once or twice a year. There seems to be some kind of information download that happens during psychedelic experiences or at least a reframing of the past six months of life that you’ve been through. And so I think that the problem is when people do it every day or at least every week is there’s not even enough data for the brain to chew on from what they’ve been doing in their daily lives. So I think that the psychedelics are very useful either for a concentrated period of time where you’re doing a lot of trauma work or transformational work or staggered just once or twice a year depending on what you’re working on. So there’s a lot of debate out there about how often they should be taken, but I do see it as a wide range of things that you can do.

Depending on what you’re talking about, meditation should be every day and psychedelics would be on the other side of the extreme where it’s like maybe once or twice a year and then you’ve got all your other practices in between of like going on nature hikes and retreats and other things that you need to process daily life so that you’re able to figure out what’s working, what’s not, and define new goals for yourself and move forward.

Lorne Brown 

Kind of reminds me that for health, there’s certain things you would do. So diet, movement, sleep, and then once in a while you may need a prescription drug because to stay healthy. And so same thing for the spiritual or mental health side, you’re doing your daily meditation as you forest baths, walks in nature and then maybe you got some trauma, you need a little help or an addiction and you may need a little help pushing along and then go back to your practices of good sleep, eating, movement, et cetera.

Cody Rall 

Yeah. I would say the psychedelic is more of a surgery than anything

Lorne Brown

Spiritual surgery.

Lorne Brown 

You don’t know my story, but I did the DMT and it destroyed my nervous system, felt like that. It wasn’t a good experience and it accelerated my work because I had to figure out how to regulate and heal my nervous system and the integration part, which is so important. So I would say I’m glad I did it because I’m glad where I am now. But if you said to get where you are now, Lorne, in the past you have to go through this, I would say, “No, I’m not doing it. It was too uncomfortable.”

Cody Rall 

And that’s like a really healthy thing to talk about too because it’s not for everybody and I think that people get excited about it because it could be a really useful tool. I think that if you look at first time takers of psilocybin, for example, of terminally ill cancer patients, those results in that famous study were so impactful that people got really excited. But yeah, it really depends on the person.

Lorne Brown 

Well, it’s like a surgery. So there is a place and time, but you just don’t sign up for surgery thinking this would be fun, right?

Cody Rall 

Yeah. And also, have you tried the other prep work before you do surgery or you trying meditation? Are you getting out in nature more? Are you exercising and eating better? These things can help a lot. You don’t necessarily need to drop DMT to feel better.

Lorne Brown

So I’m going to share a few of my toys that I have here.

We have something in common. So here’s my practice actually. So my current practice is the Vielight, probably minimum three to four times a week is what I use it. And I use the gamma setting. This one does gamma and alpha. So Vielight NeuroVIZR are my main things that I like to use. I have the neurable headphones as well because I had the original MUSE way back when lost it, didn’t use it, got the new one because of you, the Athena. I went and I said, “I’m going to try this. ” And then I had it for two weeks and I lost it again and you know what? I just ordered another one and then when I was listening, I’ll let my listeners know I went and just paid full price for it, but Cody on his podcast page has discount codes and I didn’t do that.

So go to his page and you’ll save a bundle on it. So one thing, because I know Lulim, I’ve interviewed him a couple times, I’ll have him again. My kind of protocol, what he would recommend, his idea, 40 Hertz in the morning for 10 to 20 minutes and 10 Hertz at night if you’re going to do it. He thinks that’s kind of a good way to use it. I have family member with Parkinson’s, I have patients, all kinds of things coming in. So a few of my friends and families are using this as well. One thing I like about this, and I think it’s the transnasal photobiomodulation that is the game changer for this. This is a big difference. And I’m curious what you think, because I haven’t compared a lot of them, but what is it that you like about red light? Well, that’s the worst name for it because it’s not really red light therapy.

Let’s call it photobiomodulation. Also used to be known, by the way, everybody, low level laser therapy, but what is the mechanism that you like your coaching clients to be using this for?

Cody Rall 

Well, it depends on what they come to me for. A lot of people have had head injuries or history of brain fog, have had long COVID clients. So almost anything you can think of that would make you feel a little foggy and have difficulty with word recall and prolonged focus. I have had some Alzheimer’s dementia clients as well that are looking for guidance on what best settings to use and I 100% agree that the intranasal was a game changer for them. In my own lab, have had a human brain skull from a cadaver and taken a look at how these things shine through the bone and you can really see how the thin bone behind the nose is the thinnest part of the skull and that’s where the most light is getting through and just coincidentally, we do have the frontal lobe of the brain right behind that area.

So one of the most important areas for human cognition is conveniently situated behind that thin bone behind the nose called the cribiform plate. What I like about photobiomodulation in that wavelength is that it does several things. We talked about meditation and high performance training and that part of cognitive training has a near and dear part of my heart. I just love meditation. I love increasing people’s performance. And what’s really neat about transcranial photobiomodulation is if you pulse the red light at certain frequencies, it really does guide the brainwaves into different frequencies. So there’s been a lot of work being done about stacking these different stimulation protocols. So maybe you start at 10 hertz and you rev it all the way up to 40 and then 80 and then 160 or even up to a thousand hertz and see how the brain responds and see if you can elicit different meditation states from people.

Because what we know from a lot of research is that the traditional neurofeedback protocols tend to reward alpha, which is around 10 hertz. And so that’s great for building a mindfulness meditation practice where you’re sitting there calm attention on the breath, but it’s a bit superficial and I think that most people that have practiced meditation for any period of time, but certainly the people that follow, for example, the gena eightfold path and the Buddhist tradition can see that having your entire brain at that frequency is a bit superficial. It’s built a bit dull, it gets boring. There are much higher levels of stimulation that you can get your mind to and much more transformed states through meditation that elicit all different types of brainwaves in the beta and the gamma range. And what happens is that in normal feedback protocol, I say normal, but traditional neurofeedback protocols is they’re kind of holding people back sometimes.

I think it’s a great basic training level, but at the higher brainwave frequencies, you start to experience things that make you want to come back and practice more. And one of the fun things that we’ve been experimenting with Vielight red light therapy is that, especially with the NeuroPro too, you can stimulate at higher frequencies and start nudging people in the direction of different experiences when it comes to sitting down and meditating. So that’s one part that I like. Actually, one of the most profound things about it is that not only can you train your brain like neurofeedback to reach different states, but the fact that it’s just good for you no matter what frequency you train at brings a lot of satisfaction to me as a healthcare provider because as you said, recommended for people that are going into surgery, for example, because we know that it reduces the inflammation, we know that it increases blood flow.

We know that it improves lymphatic and glymphatic drainage, which is sort of the waste disposal mechanism of the brain and the body. So we know it has all these peripheral effects simply from being exposed to the red light. And so you have the training aspect, which is what frequencies are you stimulating at and what kind of different cognitive performance can you get out of that? But also you’ve got the added benefit of no matter what frequency you’re training at, you’re getting these additional … Benefits. And I’ve found that the people, and this is typical for a lot of treatments in medicine, but it’s often the people that are at their worst, especially with brain fog and word finding difficulty and focus issues, the people that are at their worst tend to get the biggest response to the red light therapy. You tend to see the biggest difference.

But I certainly have seen people that are already sort of at the high performance level report that they’ve got better focus and better sleep after using the red light therapies. And it really depends on the person. But those are the reasons why I like the red light therapy is that I had had a neurofeedback practice for a few years back in 2022 and that was rewarding, but it was difficult to get change from the clients just because of how much work and dedication it took to train neurofeedback every day. But the red light therapy seems to be a little bit of an easier thing to do and it’s having more outcomes for the people that are in the program. So I’m really fond of red light therapy at this point because of those multiple reasons.

Lorne Brown 

What I heard from you then and kind of aligned with is the photobiomodulation can increase blood flow, improve mitochondrial function, help remove metabolic waste and all that is good for brain health. Here’s where I want some clarification. One of your videos, you were comparing the NeuroVIZR to the Vielight. I see these have two different mechanisms. So I want to dive into this a bit from my experience. I’ve interviewed Garnet, the founder twice. So are you still playing with the Neurovizor? Because I’ve seen you use it on your videos.

Cody Rall 

I haven’t been using it as much lately, to be honest.

Lorne Brown 

I’m curious. So I want to ask you a couple questions. One is where I see this different than some of the other systems out there is most of them are doing in training, even like 40 Hertz trying to keep you on a certain thing. My understanding is … Oh, let’s just put it out there that as far as I’m aware, they’ve done very little studying on their system. So we don’t have a lot of data on their system. And I don’t want to forget this. I have done one little thing. I have done 10 days of before, during, and after using my neurables with the NeuroVIZR. It’s just playful to see what happens

Cody Rall 

Yeah, very cool. Yeah.

Lorne Brown 

I will share with you that before it, it was around 40% brain focus from the nerve, all 10 times 100% for the full 11 minutes.

Cody Rall 

Wow.

Lorne Brown

And that blew my mind that it said I was focused because I’m drifting, I’m having … It gives you like a psychedelic experience. I don’t feel focused. I’m having a little trip. I’m seeing colors and shapes. Sometimes it’s 96%, but that’s because sometimes it does 30 seconds of chirping at the beginning just to warm you up. So I think that before and after that one minute, which makes it 12 minutes is why it wasn’t 100%. It went down to 92 or 94. And then I would wear the nervous for at least an hour after and it would stay up over 75 to 80% focus. So close to 40 before, almost 100% 10 days in a row every time I did it and then high 70s, 80s. So we’re going to go into the NeuroVIZR, but I just want to share, that’s my experience, but I have questions about the nervevisor.

The thing that I’m intrigued by the NeuroVIZR based on what they’re saying is they’re calling it brain engagement, not entrainment. Meaning it’s not just trying to do 40 hertz or 10 hertz. It’s putting you through a spectrum. And I think of this as the … And he actually says it’s not the NeuroVIZR 11 minute experience that’s key. He says what happens afterwards, right? Integration. And I was like, oh, that’s very important because psychedelics, the people that I know that are well trained in psychedelics say that the real magic is in integration after the psychedelic experience. It’s that’s where everything changes for the brain. So here’s my questions. I don’t see it as improving ATP or even blood flow, although it could be or any of that.

I feel it’s taking my brain for a workout and the flashing light I know through the optic nerve, I think affects the brain. And I know in the old days in the caves, they used to have hallucinations with the flickering light and looking at the shadows. He talks about some of the old sages. I don’t know the whole mechanism behind it, although there is mechanism behind flickering light, but I think he’s onto something with not just giving you 40 hertz, but he works out the brain. His app has improved now where I realized some of the intensities I gave to people were five. Now he rates them one, two, three, four, five, so I could see what kind of workout I’m giving people. So I was giving people a four or five. Now everybody gets a one for the first couple of times. But now my question is flickering light, do we know what it’s doing?

He says it does a state change, which I’ve experienced myself and I’ve seen patients on my table instant state change. It is instant they feel it. He says that if you do it regularly, hence it’s 21 days and you do this often, not every day by the way, but there’s a 21 day program where they have a rest day that from state change done regularly will become a trait change. So basically it’s neuroelastic. So the elastic band goes, I shift it, but in a day or two, they go back to the elastic shrinks back and they’re back to their old anxious life. But neuroplastic is if I do it regularly, eventually it’s like plastic, it will stay. And I have felt that I’ve done this long enough that my focus has definitely changed from my own anecdotal. Now I want to do your program because I haven’t been really measuring it.

So I can only tell you subjectively I think I’m different. Now I’m going to talk to you and get into one of your programs because I’m like, I wonder if we can measure where I’m at and then measure over your five day program, your eight week program, can we see different? That’s why I wanted to have you on is there’s one thing to say subjective, but you’re doing objective data by measuring. So back to the neuro advisor, flickering lights and engagement versus entrainment, what are your thoughts based on what I shared with you?

Cody Rall 

Well, it goes back to what we were talking about before where you’re kind of stimulating my brain in this conversation where could we see differences in alpha response that are not only a state change before and after the NeuroVIZR experience, but also a trait change that remains changed for days after the treatment. So I think that if programs like NeuroVIZR are able to increase flexibility of the brain to adapt to stress, then that’s very interesting. That’s very valuable potentially. I think that I’m just taking a look at their website right now and getting up to speed on what they’ve published recently. And I see that they’ve done some HRV studies as well as some follow-ups to the EEG studies showing increased brainwave variability. Those are great ways of demonstrating that it’s having an actual real world effect on the brain and body with the stimulation.

But I think that what needs to be done is pick whether it’s long COVID or generalized anxiety disorder or PTSD and do some kind of clinical study where they’re able to, I hate to say it, take surveys and have people rate where they’re at and then do eight weeks of reviser stimulation and then rate where they’re at at the end of the eight weeks and see how they’ve changed. Have you seen any studies that they’ve done like that, that are sort of like the traditional clinical studies?

Lorne Brown 

No, and that’s where I’ve talked to Guardian, whatever their reasons or excuses will be, eventually somebody’s going to have to do that. And that’s why, just so you know, I’m volunteering you, Cody, for a little bit of … It’s got to start with some data. I sent Garnet my pictures of the before and after because I just said to Garnet, I said, “You should contact Nurable because just so you know, I just did your device and I showed 100% 10 days in a row while it was on. ” And like you said, yeah, the lights definitely locked in my brain because I didn’t think I was locked in, but my brain definitely, it had my attention. Now the question is, and again, why I’m interested in your program so everybody, I haven’t done Cody’s program, but he’s not a one-off. His programs, he has these 21-day programs and routines.

So that’s where I think the power of his thing is. He has sleep routines, he has a burnout routine, a focus routine where you do it for 21 days and that’s where you’re going to get the neuroplasticity or the trait change he claims. And yes, studies are expensive, but now when I get my muse and my neurable and I hang out with you a bit, I’m going to figure out just my power of one. You will help me hopefully because I got the gadgets, what would be a good little experiment, you’ll show me what I should check off for my qualitative. Then I’m going to measure stuff before, during, and after, and we’ll do it for two months and just see if there’s a change. And then hopefully somebody will, usually it’s the skeptic that’s going to say, “Screw you guys. I’m going to prove you wrong and go do a study.” And then they usually find out it works. That’s my favorite. The guy that comes in saying, “I’m going to show you’re wrong,” ends up showing us we’re right.

Cody Rall 

I mean, I love it. I love biohacking. I’m rooting for NeuroVIZR. I really am. I think that they’re likely doing great work. I think that just to share a little bit of my perspective, it used to just be able to do product reviews and talk about the technology and get excited about it, but with more power becomes more responsibility so they say in Spider-Man, right? So as I’ve had more viewers come into the channel, they’re really like, “Hey, I only have $500 to spend and I have some serious issues. What do I spend my money on? ” And so I can say, “Oh, I’ve got NeuroVIZR over here. I’ve got Vielight over here, you can try both.” They’re like, “I only have $500. I have a major pain point right now. What is top of the list for me to make an investment and hopefully get some improvement?” And so when you’re faced with that type of pressing issue, it becomes, you know what?

Vielight has more data. They have more evidence. They’ve done more third party studies. And if you were to take that $500, I would recommend that you spend it on a Vielight red light therapy product for your long COVID as opposed to NeuroVIZR at this point simply because of the fact that they have more evidence and research, they have more data. I’m aligned with

Lorne Brown 

You too because the patient or the client, the mechanism’s interesting to us, but they just want to know, “Well, I feel better or not. ” So when we compare NeuroVIZR and Vielight, you and I, I’m curious about the mechanism, but I’m with you. Right now you can get behind the Vielight because you got data and we know for COVID, I know Vielight, Lew Lim, they recently published one on long COVID with PBM. And there’s other papers that I had a chance to look at that aren’t from Vielight that showed that. So you’re right, that’s that. Sometimes I play the game which we’re playing. Money’s not an issue. Everybody can access what do we … But we still don’t have data. Even with my patients, I keep telling them, “This is a wellness device because there is no data for any claims.” That’s why it’s called a wellness device, not a medical device.

Cody Rall 

Yeah, exactly. And there’s some things about NeuroVIZR that are just experientially more fun. It’s like this fun psychedelic show that it’s really enjoyable. They got great music, they’ve got great patterns, it’s beautiful.

Lorne Brown

Well, yes, the fun part. So I have the sensei and I did it a week and I stopped. I didn’t find it fun. I found it better to use … So I bought this, have the membership, spent some good money on this, used it for a week maybe two, but I never got into it. The Vielight I do, because I’m motivated because I want to keep my brain power. So I use it regularly and it’s easy. It’s easy. And the NeuroVIZR, I don’t do it every day, but I want to do it every day because it’s fun.

Cody Rall 

Yeah. It’s just fun. Yeah. It’s just showing family members and stuff. It’s

Lorne Brown 

Like, “Hey, this is like- ” I take it on trips and I put everybody on and they’re like, “Whoa.” And the fun part is important because there’s a lot of things that work, but if somebody doesn’t do it, the gym works. If you work out, it’s going to help your health. Eating a certain way will help your health, good sleep. I mean, if people just slept, moved their bodies and ate the right diet, 95% of most health issues would just be resolved, but it’s not fun to eat well. It’s not fun to go to the gym. If you have something that you want to do, I’m like, “Can I do this again today? Have I used these three days? Should I take a break?” That’s a good thing because you’re going to use it. Just like I said, the Sensei may be the best device on the market, but I have not gotten into the habit of wanting to use it.

This was easy for me. All right. So that’s my nerve advisor. My takeaway from here is we don’t have data. I think I piqued your curiosity.

Cody Rall 

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Lorne Brown 

And to me it’s A, it’s fun. B is the workout. To me, it’s the engagement. And that’s where I thought Garnet was talking about the engagement. There’s a few things I want to touch on with you, but I was thinking about my anxious patients and something I, again, want to have a follow-up conversation with. I’m aware of our time, but in some of your episodes and in my work, we talk about this default mode network and when people are really anxious, it’s probably overly activated and when people have these beautiful non-ordinary states, it’s dampened down. These are claims because nobody studied this, but he has a program called Shifting Into Task, which the description says it dampens down the default mode network. And then he has another one under, this is under the Brain Gym section of his app, feeling me, which he says will upregulate the default mode network.

And there is some discussion, this is your expertise, that people that have dementia, their default mode network is going down.

So I would be like, “Huh, I wonder if somebody would ever do a Feeling Me program for these dementia people if it uploads it if they start to have more awareness again and come back to themselves.” Because he says that in here, nobody has data so anybody could say anything, but since he said it, I was like, hi, I know he uses research to come up with his programs, so there’s a thought behind it. He’s just not throwing dice, but nobody has studied that I’m aware of what they say it’s doing to see if it’s doing that.

Cody Rall 

Yeah. I became more interested in upregulating the default mode network, taking a look at the Vielight studies because when they did the dementia studies, there was a small study that they did with … It was really small. It was only for active versus for sham. I think UCSF did it, but they were talking about how after the red light therapy, there was more integration of the default bone network that when it was activating and needed to be activated, it was activating stronger. And if you think about it, if you’re having self-referential thought, that’s in sort of the same mode as memory retrieval and logic for decision making.

Lorne Brown

Well, here’s something when you guys study this, because I know in the West we think something does this, so it only does this like a switch. So I’m going to use an acupuncture study and then I’m going to compare it to photobiomodulation. It’s a regulator. So there’s a really nice acupuncture study for blood pressure and those that had high blood pressure, same points when you did it, their blood pressure dropped. If they had low blood pressure and you did the points, the blood pressure went up and if their blood pressure was normal, no change. So people thought, “Oh, these points lower blood pressure.” No, they regulate. Photobiomodulation is doing the same thing in my opinion. It’s regulated. It’s not like it reduces inflammation. It regulates. It upregulates some good inflammatory cytokines and it down regulates the bad ones. I would guess and bet that I would not make the conclusion that red light therapy upregulates the default mode network.

I would guess it regulates it. And for those that it’s dampened down too much, it would upregulate and those that it’s too much, it would downregulate. That would be my guess that it’s giving the body what it needs so the body can do what it’s supposed to do and a healthy body is able to regulate. That’s my guess.

Cody Rall 

They found similar metrics. I just did a Joe Dispenza- 

Lorne Brown 

I’ve done three of his retreats.

Cody Rall 

Did you see the paper that just came out two weeks ago from UCSD taking a look at, oh man, they did so many blood biomarkers and they did brain MRI and all of this. I have an episode coming out on it very soon. But one of the interesting findings was that yes, some inflammatory markers were reduced, but some of the other ones were increased. So you made me think about where these experiences, these practices help you regulate and don’t necessarily mean up or down. It means more of a healthy balance regulated.

Lorne Brown 

When people pop at Joe’s retreat, so Joe Dispenza, everybody’s written a couple of books, go check him out. He has a really nice, used to be a week long retreat. I think they’re still seven days away. I’ve done three of them. People pop. And when I was there, he was doing the data at the time, collecting it. People were hooked up at the back. And like you were saying, people think, oh, alpha is the meditative spiritual state. These people weren’t alpha when they were popping, having these experiences. They went high gamma, crazy gamma, right? And a lot of these devices aren’t measuring that stuff that we … So we think everything’s alpha, so that’s what we’re measuring. And you’ve said it really well in your episodes that sometimes it’s preventing … You didn’t use these words, but when you were having some of your non-ordinary experiences and you weren’t getting the muse birds chirping alpha, but you shouldn’t be in that non-ordinary state.

Obviously the non-ordinary state isn’t this calm alpha. It’s a whole other brainwave access. I

Cody Rall

Mean, the way that the Buddhist tradition, the eightfold path talks about is you do stay in that state for maybe 20 minutes and sort of put money in the bank for the elevated states, but once you sort of take the lid off, then you’re able to go into the higher states.

Lorne Brown 

Supplement wise, I know you like magnesium L-theanine for that brain focus.

Cody Rall 

Yeah

Lorne Brown 

In my clinic, we have naturopathic doctors, functional medicine. I’ll share how we use … Our biggest thing is sleep. So if somebody comes in we got to get you sleeping. If you’re not sleeping without prescription drugs, we have to help with that. And for our women, if they’re cycling, we regulate their cycle and their gut health. Those are our key things. But sleep is primary move and then we have an anti-inflammatory diet. Supplement wise, I’m curious what you like for neuroinflammation or brain health. The magnesium side, we would do magnesium L-theanine in the morning and magnesium bisglycinate at night. The bisglycinate  for my team is more for insomnia, muscle relaxation, calming the nervous system and the L-theanine more for that brain fog concentration. I mean, you can take them just one or the other. Like you said, people don’t want to spend too much money. You can choose one or the other, but if price isn’t an issue, the L-theanine, just like you said, the PBM probably better in the morning.

Our team likes the L-theanine more in the morning and the bisglycinate at night. But if you just had the L-theanine, they say, “Well, you can take it at night as well.” I

Cody Rall 

Actually met with the mag team team here recently in LA. They’re the creators of the magnesium three and eight and they educated me where a lot of the sleep data that they’re seeing wasn’t actually improved sleep latency. So if you took magnesium three and eight before bed, it wasn’t that you were getting to sleep quicker. It was that your sleep cycles were improved. And what they were telling me is they do believe that it gives more metabolic resources for the neurons to do their thing and that a lot of them are taken in magnesium three and eight during the day when they’re tired instead of it for being going to sleep, it’s like more energy. So that’s in complete alignment with what they were saying. I learned a lot from talking with them.

Lorne Brown

And then I heard this.

Cody Rall 

Yes. I love ketone-IQ. Okay.

Lorne Brown 

Tell me. So I’ve done a little bit. Now when I do it, I feel like it’s doing something to my brain, but I feel like a little non-ordinary state for me so far. I’ve gone through about six or seven bottles. I got to try it for a month on and off, but tell me, I figured I haven’t done a deep dive, but tell me what you think of it. I’m so glad that you got excited about it. My wife looked at this parcel that came in and she saw this. She goes, “That’s expensive. What the hell?”

Cody Rall

Yeah, it tastes like cough syrup.

Lorne Brown 

It tastes terrible.

Cody Rall 

Yeah. If there wasn’t actually an effect, I wouldn’t take it. But I am so excited that despite the high cost, I find myself getting back on Amazon when I’m out of bottles because more of it.

Lorne Brown 

Okay. So what’s the mechanism here behind this?

Cody Rall 

Yeah, and I need to talk about it more on YouTube because obviously it’s got me- 

Lorne Brown 

I got to take a half a shot right now.

Cody Rall 

So it works best for me if I’m in a fasted state.

If you think about how ketone bodies work, if you’re going more into ketogenesis, your brain and your body are shifting its metabolic profile to utilizing ketones. And I can’t remember the exact ketone body that’s in ketone-IQ. I think it’s beta hydroxybutyrate and it actually might be a custom ketone I think that’s not naturally produced in the body. I need to do more research on that. But regardless, where I noticed this in my life was when I was in college, I did some natural bodybuilding competitions. And so I would go very ketogenic to the point where I wasn’t getting good sleep and I was kind of anxious, but I noticed that my thinking and my cognitive performance was at a high level. I was getting straight A’s despite not sleeping well. And then later on I got into intermittent fasting. So I noticed that if I eat earlier in the day, it really slows me down.

I perform best off of a ketogenic state and I really notice that with ketone-IQ is if I’ve not eaten for at least, let’s say I had dinner at 6:00 PM last night, so I haven’t eaten for 14 hours already, that’s when it hits the best is when I take ketone-IQ and I fest for like 12 hours and the brain just latches on to that as fuel and I get really excited and optimistic and I get a lot of ideas. I like to take it before I go to the gym. I’m listening to my music, I’m lifting weights or going for a run. And so I’m just thinking about life and my business and I’m getting good ideas about what to do next. So that’s been my experience on ketone-IQ. And of course- Is it an

Lorne Brown 

Everyday supplement for you or you take it once in a while? Because I don’t think it’s an every day

Cody Rall 

No, I was thinking about taking it once every day, but what tends to happen is that I take it in two scenarios. Either I’m so busy I don’t have time to eat lunch that day, so I go a full 24 hour fast until dinner that night. And I find that on those days, I really like to take ketone-IQ because not only does it help me keep going all day, but it also helps with hunger a little bit I think because the body has some fuel to run off of. And then I’ve been doing some of these men’s training groups up in LA since I moved to California. It’s like this leadership training group. And what I noticed is that because the meetings start at 7:30 at night, I’ll be pretty tired by then. I’m an old man at this point. I go to bed at like 8:30, 9:00 up by five and I don’t want to take caffeine at that point at night.

I do notice that it does increase mental energy a little bit if I’ve eaten already, but it’s best when I’m fasted. Those will be the two scenarios where I’m not really planning on eating much that day and I need some extra fuel or it’s towards I’m going to have a longer night, but I don’t want to take caffeine because I know it’s going to disrupt my sleep. I’ll take a ketone-IQ that give me a little extra. 

Lorne Brown 

Because I haven’t taken this in the late afternoon yet. So you don’t think this will upset your sleep?

Cody Rall 

I haven’t had it upset my sleep.

Lorne Brown:

Hey, I increased the size. So it’s R-1,3-butanediol

Cody Rall 

Okay.

Lorne Brown 

Anyways, that’s that. I’m so glad that you’re into it

Have you ever done the, what, the meth blue one? What’s that one?

Cody Rall 

Methylene blue.

Lorne Brown

So I did that for six weeks and besides my wife getting so upset because I stained a few counters and my urine turn blue, I didn’t see anything on it. So I stopped that one.

Cody Rall

I didn’t feel anything either. And I actually made a video about it and I got 100,000 methylene blue ride or die enthusiasts attacking me on YouTube.

Lorne Brown 

It works for some people, right? It didn’t work for me

Cody Rall

So that’s the thing. I think that you have to have some sort of significant metabolic dysfunction for it to bring you the benefits and it has some serosynergic effect, which means it’s affecting serotonin receptors. And in my opinion, if you are not suffering from metabolic dysfunction or anxiety disorder, anytime you start messing with serotonin receptors, you can short circuit the reward pathways in your brain a little bit. So I’d rather not take things that are affecting serotonin receptors if I can avoid them. So I found it as a downside to something that wasn’t giving me any pro on top of it, staining my tongue and being my fingertips and all that.

Lorne Brown 

Well, you’re a psychiatrist. So to our listeners, I take that with some authority.

Cody Rall 

Yeah. Don’t take a methylene blue with like an SSRI, for example. You might put yourself at risk of serotonin syndrome.

Lorne Brown 

Okay. As we wrap up here, your program, so I think you have a five-day program and maybe an eight-week program, but can you tell us how people can work with you and what each of these programs entail?

Cody Rall 

Yeah, I have three different programs. The fay was designed as a challenge to improve your overall health and brain health. So that one originally was five days in a row at one meeting time and because I have an international audience, a lot of people were having difficulty making all the meeting times. So what I’ve done is actually taken the lectures that I did over the holiday season and edit those to cut out people to protect their identities. But the full lectures are now edited and hosted on school. So for those of you that haven’t seen school yet, it’s spelled S-K-O-O-L. It’s one of the new online education platforms. So what I’m doing is creating an online course that’s a product of that five-day challenge. So I take you through emotional release techniques, neurofeedback training, photobiomodulation, and then some other wearables that are out there. And then on the last day lifestyle integration and I’ll talk about dementia.

So it’s like a full scope of the entire gambit of devices out there and my experiences, my personal stories and what I find works best. And what we’re doing is creating a video course there that I’ll do with office hours. So instead of five days in a row, if you sign up for the school course, you’ll get access to all those videos. I’m filming additional videos for them and then all the PDFs and other resources that I’ve written over the years. And then we’ll do weekly office hours where I’ll be there live. You can ask me any questions that you want. And that’s sort of the introductory course to what I offer.

Lorne Brown 

In that introductory course, do they need to have any of this equipment or …

Cody Rall 

They’re not required to have any of that equipment, but if you want to get a device that I talk about quite a bit and play around with it while you’re going through the lectures, I recommend the Muse Headband.

Lorne Brown 

Okay. So Muse Headbound, you’re going to talk about photobiomodulation. So that I imagine is the Vielight. So those are the two things that you’re … In that five-day intro, it’s theoretical so people can learn about it, but if people want to actually experience, do they get to … I think if somebody like myself will have the gear where I’m like, I want to know where my brain’s at and I want to know what I can do to make improvements, because I think you talked about, is it called MindLift or something? Yeah,

Cody Rall 

MindLift. Yep.

Lorne Brown 

Yeah. So which one is it that you want them to have equipment?

Cody Rall 

Well, if you get them used headband, you’re already set up for the next tier of coaching experience, which there’s a 60-minute QEEG consult that you can do or you can do the eight-week training program. So if you sign up for the 60-minute consult, we’ll send you an additional electrode for the mindlift platform that plugs into your muse headband and that way we can get measurements all across your scalp of your brainwave activity. And a lot of people that sign up for that brain mapping are interested in doing red light therapy, but you don’t necessarily have to do red light therapy. If you wanted to do just a brain map to see where you’re at and talk about doing NeuroVIZR or red light therapy, we could do that. That one counts towards the eight week program. So just for full transparency, the five-day course used to be 497, but I’m going to reduce it to 197 because it’s not live five days in a row, it’s a video course with office hours.

So we’re offering that as a pretty entry level 197 online course with all the video lectures. And then the QEEG scan right now is a thousand. But if you do that one, that price applies to the eight week course, which is 3000 for eight weeks of QEEG and red light therapy training. And in that course we’re taking before and after measurements of the red light therapy and seeing how it affects your particular brain. And ideally you have a NeuroPro2 so that we’re creating custom protocols for you.

Lorne Brown

And let people know the NeuroPro2 is about 5,000 I think,

Cody Rall 

Right? Yeah. So by the time you’re getting into all of it, it is a pretty heavy price tag, but people that buy the NeuroPRO too often want to spend that additional money just to make sure that they’ve got the right custom protocols for it. Otherwise, it’s a steep learning curve to that thing. There’s a lot of ins and outs of doing the programming and if you don’t have any brain data, how are you supposed to figure out which protocol is best for you? So that’s how we’ve got it set up.

Lorne Brown 

Yeah. I like how you’re making it individualized because the app, I don’t have the Neuro2, but I looked at the app online and they make it public friendly, like press this button, press this for these things. But again, it’s just kind of like it’s for the general population. And as we know as health providers, nobody actually exists that is the general population,

Cody Rall 

But

Lorne Brown 

It’s everybody. So that’s great. So you’re changing your video course the five days, it’s going down to 197. And then if you do the, what’d you call the QE? What was it?

Cody Rall 

QEEG MindLift brain scan. Oh,

Lorne Brown 

The EEG. Okay, the MindLift. So you get some wiring from you, you already have your MUSE, that’s $1,000, but if you go do the eight week program, it’s 3,000, but it’s not 1,000 plus 3,000, that assessment you’ve done. So the max you’re going to pay is 3,000 for if you do the assessment with the eight-week program. So that’s good. People can do the thousand then go, “Okay, I think I want to do the eight week,” and they can apply that a thousand to do it.

Cody Rall 

Yes.

Lorne Brown 

I love it. That makes it really nice. And then you’re using the muse and the Vielight for that. And if people have other toys, like they have a neuroVIZR neuroble, do you support them with things that they can do with that as well?

Cody Rall 

Definitely can be in the discussions during the eight week course. I can advise you on how to use those different tools to make different measurements throughout the eight weeks. Or if you just want to get a QEEG with the muse on a 16 minute consult and then just talk shop about what other wearables you have and I can give you advice on lifestyle design there too if you don’t want to do the full eight weeks.

Lorne Brown 

And then what’s your podcast again and where do you want people to find you so they can just go look you up? We’ll put in the show notes.

Cody Rall

Well, if you just search for me, Cody Rall MD on YouTube, you’ll find my YouTube channel. That’s where I post the majority of my content. I actually don’t have a podcast, so I’ll just YouTube. And if you want to take a look at what programs we’re offering, you can find links on the YouTube videos or you can go to www.techforpsych.com and go to the coaching page where you’ll find links to our different programs.

Lorne Brown

Great. We’re going to put those in the show notes as well. Dr. Cody, thank you so much for joining me today. I learned a lot. I hope we can have follow-up conversations and I’ll share more of my toys and I’m going to find you in your programs as well. I wanted to learn what you’re doing and want to learn how to use my toys even better.

Cody Rall 

Awesome, Lorne. Well, it was great talking shop with you and looking forward to more conversations.

Lorne Brown 

Thank you for spending this time with us on the Coherence Code Podcast. I’m Dr. Lorne Brown and I will see you next week for another conversation on coherence and healing. If this conversation resonated with you, please like, subscribe or follow the show and also share it with someone who might benefit from it as well. Remember to take a moment to breathe, reflect and stay connected. Welcome to the Coherence Code Podcast.