How to Overcome Fear & Find Your Calling — Transformation Story with Tama Kieves 

Tama Kieves 

Your life is actually always working in your favor. There’s always a movement towards expansion. There’s always a movement towards grace, but we’re not seeing it. If you’re this successful doing what you don’t love, what could you do with what you love? That was my wake up call and I realized I get one life as far as I know. What if I listen to the inner voice of love, of excitement, of desire rather than fear?

Lorne Brown 

By listening to the Coherence Code Podcast, you agree to not use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition either in yourself or others. Consult your own physician or healthcare provider for any medical issues that you may be having. This entire disclaimer also applies to any guests or contributors to the podcast. Welcome to the Coherence Code Podcast where we explore how the mind and body work together so you can move from stress and inner conflict to clarity, calm, and alignment. My name is Lorne Brown. I’m a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine and a clinical hypnotherapist. And through my work I’ve seen that healing happens when we remove what gets in the way and allow the body and the nervous system to do what they’re designed to do to heal. Welcome to the Coherence Code Podcast.

Lorne Brown

I want to welcome Tama Kieves to our podcast Today, I just completed reading, or actually as you guys know, listening, listening to her book, learning to trust herself, breaking through the blocks that hold you back. And after reading this book and listening to this book, I wanted to have these conversations with Tama and share her with you guys because she had a wake up call. We’re going to learn. She’s a Harvard Law School grad now she’s a coach and an author. And I know from the people I see my practice, the people that talk to me via social media, there’s a lot of really educated people, people that got some really good jobs going on, but they feel empty inside and they’re struggling. And I always like to have guests that can play samesies like I get you and share tools and processes. That’s the key.

Tama, you don’t know me yet either, but before I did Chinese medicine and clinical hypnosis, I have a bachelor of Science in math, and I’m a chartered accountant as well. So I like the left brain and right brain integration. So I’m a fan of are there simple steps and processes to get me into this beingness that I’m learning about from your book? And so other things I liked about Tama, that I’ve learned about, I think I’m a Star Trek fan. I think she was into Star Trek as well. We’ll find out which one she was. She’s written several books, of course about miracles, taught about miracles. So there’s a lot of things that are going on in Tam’s World that also I’ve been exposed to. And so I thought she’d be a perfect guest for us. So let me introduce Tama Kieves.

So she is an honors graduate of Harvard Law School, but she left her law of practice to write and help others live and breathe their most meaningful lives, the bestselling author of five books, including her newest ground breaking book, Learning to Trust Yourself: Breaking Through the Blocks That Hold You Back. She’s been featured in US today and on Oprah Media, and she is a sought after TEDx speaker and visionary career success coach because a lot of those people are listening. You guys, you’re the influencers of the world to make policy changes and you are running big businesses or have a high or important position in these jobs. So this work is also to help you reach your business potential, your success as well. She’s helped thousands, thousands worldwide to discover and thrive in the life calling and work of their dreams. And as I mentioned earlier, she’s also taught a course in miracles for years, and she’s known for her smart Spitfire spirituality, electric humor, and the big possibilities she brings out in others. So thank you very much Tama for joining me today.

Tama Kieves 

I am honored and you’ve got the full background there. My God.

Lorne Brown 

Yeah, these are good intentions.

Tama Kieves 

You’re not allowed to have any more careers 

Lorne Brown

Yeah, good intentions. These are like one day I’ll read these. Some of them have read, many of them have read many times. Listen, speaking of books, you’ve written five. Now we’re going to talk a lot about learning to trust yourself, but I’ve written one, I’m in the process of my second. These are no easy tasks. And so I got to give a shout out to all five books if I may. I just want to list them out just so people know because you’re the author and they took time to write, they’re your babies. I don’t want to just treat one baby with all the pension. I want all your children to receive the attention they deserve. I don’t know in what order they are, but I’m just going to share with you this time I dance, creating the work you love. There’s a really cool quote from Marianne Williamson on this, A wonderful guidebook for anyone who has ever felt this can’t be all there is. She has another book called Inspired and Unstoppable, wildly succeeding in your Life’s work. And Jack Camfield, many of you have heard of him. If you want to stay on fire as you do your greatest work in the world, read this book now. Number three, a year Without Fear four, thriving through Uncertainty. And then today learning to trust yourself or I should say her latest or fifth book, learning to trust Yourself Breaking through the blocks that hold you back. So thank you for writing those books.

Tama Kieves 

Thank you for acknowledging them and they’ve helped many, many people. Thank God. Thank God

Lorne Brown 

They helped you. Yes, many people. And I was inspired by listening to trust yourself. I want to know your story more because I used to be an accountant and I left for Chinese medicine. You’re a Harvard law degree. Curious, did you practice? Are you one of those people where you did everything your parents told you to do?

Tama Kieves 

You nailed it. You nailed it

Lorne Brown 

and then you’re empty inside. So tell us your story because I’m really curious, what were you doing and what would you basically be telling your younger self to do different? 

Tama Kieves 

I think a lot of our stories, our wake up calls begin a little earlier than things that happened earlier in our lives. So when I was young, when I was, I don’t even remember 14 or whatever, I dreamed of being a writer, that was my dream. I read Catcher in the Rye in high school and I fell in love with it, but I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and my family is Orthodox Jewish. And so if you came home and you said, I want to be a writer, nobody said mato. So my mother said, you’re going to write, you are going to write, you are going to yoga, going to write. And that was basically the go for your dreams talk. So I ignored my dreams, I ignored everything I wanted to do. I ignored those instincts. And I went off to law school.

I went to Harvard Law School and then I was on a partnership track at a major law firm. And I think you mentioned this before because a lot of us have gone through this. You are succeeding in somebody else’s way. You’re succeeding in what the society says is the culturally acceptable definition of success. But I felt empty and I felt scared. I felt really scared. I kept thinking this can’t be all there is. This can’t be it. I don’t know what I’m doing with my life. I’m succeeding. I have what people tell me is success, but I’m feeling empty and I’m feeling like I don’t even want to be here anymore. It was really a scary time. And thank God a friend at the time said something amazing. He said, think about it. If you’ve been this successful doing something you don’t even love, what could you do with what you love?

Lorne Brown 

Oh, I love that. 

Tama Kieves 

Isn’t that a great quote?

Lorne Brown 

I got to hear that again. And our listeners, it’s worth repeating because that land,

Tama Kieves 

If you’re this successful, if you’re this successful doing what you don’t love, what could you do with what you love? And so because many of us are in work like that or in lives like that, and so that was my wake up call and I realized I get one life as far as I know, I want to see where this goes. So for me, that was my wake up call to say, what if I listen to an inner voice in me, but this time, what if I listen to the inner voice of love, of excitement, of desire rather than fear? Rather than fear, fear, fear. And I think a lot of us, by the way, don’t think of it as fear. We think of it as being realistic. Well, this is what you can have. This is realistic. This is good judgment. This is what smart people do, and here’s what smart people really do. They listen to their hearts, their genius, and they open up. So that was the beginning of my story and finding this path.

Lorne Brown 

Well, so at 14 you wanted to be a writer based on your family upbringing, you’re going to starve to death. It reminded me when I did accounting, my family was like, if you really want to be successful, be a doctor. If you’re not that smart, maybe a lawyer. And if you’re simple, an accountant. So I did that. So just let you know when I switched from accounting to Chinese medicine, it didn’t go so well in the household when I was a young fellow. But it’s all worked out well. What happened after that? So you didn’t listen to the intuition. We’re going to learn about listening to that. And what is this voice?

Tama Kieves

Yes

Lorne Brown 

I want to unpack that more. But some people have to break down before they break through kind of what we’re seeing in the world today, a breakdown waiting for the breakthrough. Your book, my sense is don’t wait for the breakthrough. You become the breakthrough and then you’ll get to experience it and seed in the external world. But I’m just curious more about if you’re willing to share. So you’re at Harvard, you graduated from Harvard, you’re in the law firm,

Tama Kieves 

And it was a total meltdown. And a lot of times people, especially in the personal growth realm, hear, go for your dreams, go for your passion, and everything works out. And so that’s absolutely true. I deeply believe that, but I don’t believe it in the way that sometimes people are assuming it. And so to your point, which I think is excellent, is that we do break down before we break through. That’s part of the process. That breakdown is essential because I had to unlearn all of these crazy beliefs I had about what you could have in life, what you can’t have in life, what’s going to work, what’s not going to work. So I naively thought, oh, I’m going to leave law and I’m going to be a writer. And I knew how as an attorney, I knew how to bill hours every six minute increments.

I’m billing hours. And so I thought, I know how to be productive. I’ll just do this. I’ll just nail this, right? But creativity and really opening up to something spiritual, inspired, alive, precious, fresh, it is not linear. It is not forced. It is not productive. It is really a path of opening and deepening and becoming aware. It’s a path of really starting to become aware and listen to the choices you’re making. Every single day. People think they’re listening to their inner voice, but a lot of times they may be listening, like I said, to fear. They’re listening to what they think they should do, what they’re supposed to do, what’s smart to do. And I want you to listen to a voice that’s inside you that is only inside you that is connected to something higher, the universe, God love, whatever you want to call it, light.

But we have capacities like you wouldn’t believe. Right? But to answer your question, I don’t think any of our paths just happened instantaneously. For me, it was following breadcrumbs. It was just following this breadcrumb, which led to that breadcrumb, which led to that breadcrumb. But the biggest amount of work wasn’t even what I did. It was the facing, like you said, the breakdown, the facing, the fears that came up facing the fears of, am I crazy? Who am I to think I can do this? What do you think? You’re the messiah now. You think you’re just going to walk off and create things. And I mean just all the voices inside to learn how to manage your own inner state is everything. And that’s kind of why I wrote learning to trust yourself

Lorne Brown

And that inner state, we have this inner dialogue, and you talked about trusting yourself, but that inner dialogue sometimes is not so kind. And so to learn to differentiate, you talked about this aspect of you that has incredible capacity, and there’s many names for it. Common in our group, people call it universal energy. You can use the word God, although that’s so triggering for so many people. Divine love, you call it whatever you want, higher self. But we can go weird in that sense because on our podcast, just for our listeners, we’ve had PhD psychologists, quantum physicists, they’re researching this stuff. They’re aware there’s more to this life than our five senses and the materialistic view that discussion is being handled by the scientists, that kind of stuff. So I’m going to just share that there’s more to life than meets the eye. How do you get to trust that part of yourself? How do you get to connect it? A lot of noise. There’s a lot of noise. And so did you have a lot of noise and

Tama Kieves 

Oh, no, not me. No. I was just clear and centered and just full of daisies.

Lorne Brown 

Yeah. I want our audience to know. They’re like, because when they hear this, they’re like, well, what’s wrong?

Tama Kieves 

Why can’t I do that? Yeah,

Lorne Brown 

No, if you come from fear and lack, you’re going to get attracted. Like you’re going to get more fear and lack. If you come from feeling whole and complete, you’re going to get more abundance in your life. And the people I interview, and I’m curious, I’m actually not curious in the sense that I kind of know the answer. I listened to your book, but I came up with this structure and I noticed all the teachers of consciousness are doing this.

They’re all doing this. Some have 10 steps and 20 steps, some have two steps, but at the end of the day, what I notice is they all have an aspect of notice making the unconscious conscious, when you believe in the story, you make it real. You’re at the effect of it. So don’t take it personally. Then from there, accept a form of surrender, letting go. Accepting isn’t resignation, doesn’t mean you like it. You’re just not going to fight with reality. So the resistance drops. You become present through these uncomfortable feelings. And now that you’re present, you’re accessing, now you get to hear your higher self choose again. Right. Action falls, right thinking. And I feel that you’re saying that too, and I’d like you to unpack that now.

Tama Kieves 

Yeah, I have a few things to say actually. So I love that formula. I think that’s a great, great awareness. I would say a few things. I think because people ask me all the time, how do I hear the voice of love? Or I don’t even know what that means or that inner voice. And what are the simplest things you can do is just do something you love is just do anything you love. If you do something you love, if you are doing something you love, you get energy, it gives you other resources, you’re in higher capacities. And so it’s one of the quickest ways to shift is just to start doing things that you love. Because I’m a very practical person, and for me, I needed to know this was going to work. I needed to see evidence. I put my whole life on the line for this, but one of the things I saw was that every time I did anything I loved, things would move forward or I would feel different.

And so you start getting a sense of faith that way. The other thing, and more to the point that you were making is I think the biggest thing when people say, I can’t hear an inner voice, or I don’t know how to follow this instinct inside me, I think the biggest thing that I would tell somebody is the only reason you are not hearing a voice of love or a voice of centeredness, a voice of brilliance, absolute brilliance. That is you in you and only in you and is meant to come forth in this lifetime. The only reason you’re not hearing it is because you are listening to another voice. If you are not hearing your true voice, baby, you are hearing another voice. And so one of the sneakiest techniques I can offer you is stop listening to self-judgment. Stop listening to self-judgment. The whole point of when I wrote learning to trust yourself was just this feeling of saying, what if we could create a whole new relationship with ourselves where we only listened to a self-affirming voice, where we never listened to a voice that was judging us. One of the things that I’ve learned and that I teach, and I’ve mentioned to you, I also teach a Course in Miracles, a spiritual study program, and I do lots of classes on that online. But one of the things that I teach all the time is you will never hear inspiration. If you’re a listening to judgment,

Tama Kieves 

You will never hear inspiration. You will never hear genius. You will never hear your next step while that sense of judgment is going on. And so to your point, we do start becoming aware of that. We start becoming aware of those voices and what we choose.

Lorne Brown 

And do you find them or resonate with these uncomfortable feelings? In our society, we tend to want to medicate them, numb them. And so we will use drugs, alcohol, work, but it seems like most of the teachers of consciousness, it’s leaning into them actually being present with them. These uncomfortable feelings are actually opportunities, and they act as portals to get you present. So it is the opposite. It’s counterintuitive. Don’t turn your back to them. So that’s your take as well, right?

Tama Kieves 

Absolutely. And it took me years to realize that, to lean into those difficult feelings, to find out what they’re telling us. But also, like you said, the beliefs, right? The beliefs to start becoming aware. I want to tell you just a quick little story about that because it was in my book, but it was just a wake up call for me, so one of the things that I teach from course and miracles is always that it’s not what’s happening in your life that’s upsetting you. It’s not what’s happening in your life that’s upsetting you. It’s what you’re making it mean, right? It’s what you’re making it mean. So it’s the beliefs you’re holding. It’s always the beliefs. So like you were saying, we want to start paying attention to those difficult feelings, those difficult beliefs. So I started noticing, I had this belief that kept coming up that said, I never get what I want.

I never get what I want, but would just always come up. A speaking engagement wouldn’t come through, and it’d be like, see, I never get what I want, or somebody didn’t call me back. I don’t get what I want. My favorite lipstick was discontinued. Oh my God, this is a crisis. I never get what I want. So anyway, I started noticing where the heck did that belief come from? Because it wasn’t even true. I was living in a, I got my books published by the best publisher. I had so many things happen that I wanted. So why did I have this belief? Because when you have a belief, by the way, you see the belief and you don’t see reality, you see that feeling, but you shut out everything else. And so I’ll just tell you this quick story. I realized when I was a little girl, I was shopping with my mother and I was shopping, and one day I saw these red shoes and I was like, oh my God, I want those red shoes.

But my mother’s a very practical woman, and I knew she’s never going to get the red shoes. She’s going to say, oh, the green Elf shoes, they’re on sale. Go get those. But that day she said, you can get the shoes. And I was so excited. I was watching them wrap the shoes up in the box and put it in the tissue paper and then put it in the shopping bag. And my mother took the shopping bag and she lost the bag and she lost the shoes. And I think in that moment, I created this belief that said, I’ll never get what I want. I’ll never get what I want. And it was something like almost to kind of defend against any future pain, any future disappointment that I’ll never get what I want. And so I carried that for my whole life. And instead of, and that was by the way, that belief is more damaging, one disappointment. I closed my heart to my whole life and I said, forget it. I’m not going to want anything that’s more damaging. The amazing part of this story is I was talking to my mother years later and she’s like, what are you talking about? You got those red shoes? I’m like, what do you mean? I know we got them. What? We lost them? And she’s like, yeah. And then we called the department store and they found them and we got them. And I had no memory of that at all.

Lorne Brown 

From a clinical hypnosis perspective. First of all, love what you’re sharing here. So like you said, you can have a situation where shoes were lost and you have a new belief, a new program. I never get what I want. And that becomes the self-fulfilling prophecy. And when we’re young, we’re sponges. Our prefrontal cortex isn’t formed yet. We’re like in theta brainwaves, we’re like sponges. And what I’m pulling out of this is you can’t judge the trauma based on the event.

Lorne Brown 

It’s how you perceive it. So a belief comes and then the subconscious wants congruency. So even though there’s a part of you that wants to have what you want, you have a program that got imprinted on you, I never get what I want. So it looks like that.

When I said, notice we see the world to the lens of our subconscious. You don’t have that memory. You changed your reality of the red shoes, but you actually got the red shoes. So we are experiencing reality based on our subconscious program, the lenses that we have. And this ties into your book, trust yourself on working on those old beliefs and that chitter chatter, because if you have, you’re no good, you don’t deserve to have it. If you could start noticing, catching that and changing the language, I think in your book you’re like, oh, sweetheart, versus you idiot. How did you do this?

Tama Kieves 

Yes

Lorne Brown 

Just because it can be simple, small things done repetitively will make a change. And so absolutely, there’s one of those. Noticing and accepting yourself for the person who said, you’re an idiot, and now do it. Choose again is how could you say it differently? If this was your three-year-old child, how would you speak to her? Well then speak in that voice.

Tama Kieves 

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That is phenomenal. And you were asking for formulas and tools, and I mentioned to you earlier, I mentioned over email, I have a tool that I assign to all my clients. I inflict on all my students. It’s my personal best technique. It has saved my life a million times. I’ll just share it briefly. And if you want for your audience, it’s free. I’ll just say tkes.com/best-tool.

Lorne Brown

We’re going to put that in the show notes, everybody.

Tama Kieves 

And so my number, it’s, it’s the tool I give to everybody. If you want to learn to trust yourself, if you want to get out of fear and you want to learn to trust yourself. And so it’s a short video I did that really walks you through it and makes you do it at the time. It’s fun. It takes like five minutes and it will get you somewhere. But basically I will just tell you that it’s just a way to work with different voices in your mind. It’s one thing like you and I are saying, listen to the voice. Listen to the voice. I’m not so hot at listening to the voice. I don’t know. That would mean shutting up long enough and being still, I have lots of voices. So for me, I write them. So it’s a technique I use where I literally let fear speak again.

A lot of times in new thought communities or personal growth, personal development communities, we have this fear of fear where we’re saying, oh my God, don’t look at the fear or don’t look at fear. Be positive. I do look at the fear. I want to know what it sounds like. I want to be familiar with it. I want to start knowing the tone and the energy so I can catch it more. So I will literally write the fear out what it’s saying, everything it’s saying, and then I will, and it gives the video, gives you some cues of how to do this of, then I will tap into this other voice, this amazing other voice that is in all of us that is your higher voice, your intelligent voice, your loving voice. And I let it right back. And then I dialogue back and forth and back and forth.

For me, it’s probably been one of the best things I’ve ever done with my life. It’s helped me to really start creating a relationship with myself that I know how to listen to something else. And like I said, when I wrote Learning to trust Yourself, my main goal was for myself, not only for other people, but for myself to heal. I wanted to learn how to create a relationship with myself so that I can do anything I want in this life? How do I not get in my own way? And so that tool is really helpful.

Lorne Brown 

Yeah, get out of your own way.

Tama Kieves 

Yes.

Lorne Brown 

I like how you integrate the parts and this has become a popular form of therapy. What does it integrate? Family systems, parts work. But I like it because often we push away that part of ourselves, the ego, and you’re taking a relationship. And so all the parts, if they get seen and heard, Gordon Neufeld, the local psychologist here. When you feel seen and heard, that feels love.

And you talk so much about love, this love energy. I’ve had Joe Vital on here, love everybody, love, love, love energy. Not Hollywood love, but this love energy of acceptance, of this love energy of being seen and heard. I find that when you’re doing your exercise, what fires for me in my mind is that that part of you that is being dismissed or pushed aside because society says no or your mother says no or whatever, it’s finally getting seen and heard. Yes, seeing and hearing part of you, doesn’t mean you agree with it. Doesn’t mean you like it. You’re just accepting that there’s a part of you that thinks and feels this way. Yeah,

Tama Kieves 

And I think there’s other aspects of this as well, because I think it’s kind of what you were saying with the hypnosis about certain beliefs that are underneath things I didn’t even know had another voice. I was just listening to this negative voice. And in my world, I just thought it was being realistic. Well, you got to be realistic. You got to be savvy. You got to be smart about it. You’re a certain age, you can only have this. You can’t have that. I just thought it was smart. I never knew there was another voice. You’d read other spiritual books and you’d hear that and people would say, oh my God, listen to your higher voice. But what amazes me about doing that technique that I was sharing, the best tool is every single time, no matter how scared I am, no matter how angry I am, no matter how frustrated I am, I can access something else that’s really wise and deep and amazing.

And I didn’t know that, right? So for me, that was amazing. And then the other part of this too, when we were talking about love everything, love everything. The beauty of that, the beauty of really accepting all our voices and loving ourselves and loving all voices is that for me, and again, I’m coming from of course miracles tradition, and so is that I can’t hear the voice of spirit. I can’t hear the voice of universal energy while I’m in a negative energy there. There’s not a match. There’s not a vibrational match. So if I am accepting or loving something, I’m in this other energy and then I am a match to something higher than other things can happen. So

Lorne Brown

You’re like a radio dial, you tune into it, right?

Tama Kieves 

Yes. 

Lorne Brown 

You’re tuning into it through these exercises like this writing exercise that you shared.

Do you find them, because you teach the course of miracles, so I’m curious if this is a line there I often found for myself and what I share with my patients is when you have a lot of noise in the system, you can’t hear it, right?

Tama Kieves 

Yes, yes.

Lorne Brown 

I call that that’s resistance. So when you’re fighting with reality, there’s resistance. And so accepting what is leaning into these uncomfortable feelings, you actually said it’s the fear of the fear. It’s the fear of disappointment. It’s the fear of is worse than the actual of

Tama Kieves 

Yes.

Lorne Brown 

When you lean into it, and your book has, every chapter gives us tools. When you’re able to learn to, because it is a skill, it’s uncomfortable. You have to be willing to feel uncomfortable and get practice at metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings. And when you’re able to lean into them and use these tools that you share, the resistance drops now the noise is gone. Now inspired thought comes through you, now you hear it, which leads to right actions. We both like the practical how too.

Tama Kieves 

Exactly.

Lorne Brown 

So resistance is the issue. Fighting with reality love does not mean you like it. That’s why the word love sometimes is confusing because people think, I don’t like this. No, no, no. Can you accept it?

Tama Kieves 

And I really love that you brought this up, so many deeper things within this, right? So first of all, what you just said was brilliant, if we, again, of course, Merkel’s point of view of if I am accepting, loving, not judging really well, from of course, from me’s point of view, when it says loving, it just means not judging. It doesn’t mean, oh my God, I love it. It just means I’m not attacking. I’m not defensive. I’m just not judging. I’m aware of when I’m doing that. Again, like you said, other things can come through. But here’s the other thing. Sometimes we’re resisting something because we’re misinterpreting it, so that a lot of times we’re assigning a meaning to it or we’re just saying, Ugh, that I can’t stand this. And again, what I teach is there’s always another way to see this. You are not seeing what’s really going on. Your life is actually always working in your favor. It’s always working in your favor. There’s always a movement towards health. There’s always a movement towards expansion. There’s always a movement towards grace, but we’re not seeing it because we’re interpreting those old ways. And so I was just going to read something super quick. It’s a short passage from learning to trust yourself, because one of my biggest fears was disappointment. I was afraid

Lorne Brown 

First of all, this is very cool. I’ve done a hundred plus episodes. Many authors, and this is the first time I’m going to have an author read from their book. Woo-hoo. My first, we don’t have a bell or something, but our first

Tama Kieves 

We need that bell chime. The ankles are chiming here.

Lorne Brown 

You’re my first Emma.

Tama Kieves 

It’s just a short one, but it’s like for me, I was so afraid of believing in these things because I was afraid of disappointment. And so I’m just reading this, it’s a super short, and if you get the book or whatever, it’s on page 15 if you’re looking for it. I was saying an inspired life works when we move forward, not when we think about moving forward. And then it says, maybe you’ll relate to this. I was afraid to trust myself because I was terrified of being disappointed. I was afraid to believe in a positive energy or universe or any idea that made me feel warm inside. I didn’t want to break my own heart. I could point to times in my life where I believed something would work, and I didn’t want to open myself up to ever being disappointed again. Here’s what I know now, a truth that feels like a meteor shower or a key to a door that had always been locked.

It wasn’t disappointment that caused me to stop believing. It’s when I stopped believing that I felt disappointed. Yes, things happened that didn’t go the way I expected or desired. Then I chose to stop trusting. I closed my heart, gave up on everything. This self-abandonment sabotaged my frame of mind, my enthusiasm and my actions. I became unavailable to anything progressing and maturing into better outcomes. This was the problem because of my black hole, because here’s the real truth. Every time I have stayed open and moved forward continuing to believe in my path, I have discovered something that made me believe in my path. So I just wanted to share that because for me, it was like pa, when I realized, oh my God, I didn’t stop believing because I’d been disappointed. It’s just that I was disappointed because I stopped believing. I stopped trusting. I stopped daring. I stopped going forward. I started assuming nothing was ever going to work. I started assuming all these painful thoughts. And then I would drag in past stories and past ideas instead of staying open and available. And that’s what we’re talking about because when you trust yourself and you become available, really available, then anything’s possible.

Lorne Brown 

And from what you shared, thanks for reading that expert, page 15 in her book, Trust Yourself. You’re saying things, and we hear this a lot in conscious circles, things don’t happen to you. They happen for you. And if you can, this is that noticing part. You see the world through the lens of your subconscious. That’s how you give it, meaning you’re suggesting that. Can you put on a different lens, maybe look for a new perception to see how this is, where’s the opportunity here? There’s an opportunity for growth, and there’s an underlying assumption that consciousness works through us and consciousness is inherently loving.

That’s the big assumption which allows you to trust part of that even though what you think is not working out in your favor, there’s that part of you knowing that, how’s this happening for me? Where’s the opportunity for growth and evolution? Is that what you’re sharing here?

Tama Kieves 

Absolutely.

Lorne Brown 

And that gives you the courage to look at it and to start to experience it

Tama Kieves 

And to choose not to take it personally and to go back to your not resisting. If I’m already thinking this is happening for me somehow, or that there’s love here or grace here or something helpful, maybe I won’t resist it as much. Maybe like what we were just talking about before,

Lorne Brown 

Don’t resist.

Tama Kieves

Or when we were talking before about the breakdown to the breakthrough, when I was writing my first book, I had a meltdown. It took me 11 years to write my first book. It just took me forever. And I always tell people it took that long because it actually took 12 years. And I always tell people, I think it took me 11 years to heal in one year to write a book. And by that I mean it was like all these things of that, the things that are in our way, the belief systems that say it’s too late. I should have done this by now. I’m not as successful as that person or whatever junk. We each individually have those negative beliefs or those breakdowns are actually in our favor because what it forced me to do was to confront these limiting beliefs and to make another choice, to make another choice that would change my entire life and to rewire everything. So anytime you’re going through a disappointment right now, or pain or frustration, a job loss, an employee quitting whatever’s going on in any of our lives, this is the moment. This is the opportunity that you have to really do this differently, to open up to seeing this differently, to choosing differently, to showing up differently and changing your whole life.

Lorne Brown 

And I’m curious because here’s an experience for me. You said an employee I’ve had where I’ve had an employee leave quit and it triggered me abandonment, shame or something, whatever. The program never judges the action. And so through the years using these tools, they’ve been metabolized. And this is where I say, wow, this shit really works, if I’ve had employees leave nothing. No visceral somatic response. Mentally I can say I don’t want it, I don’t like it. I still get that. It’s not what I prefer but there is no visceral response, which I would say no resistance, which means I’m at peace because why stress unnecessarily? And now the flown receptivity is there trusting that other things will come, and I’m open and available to the opportunities, and I’m able to see those synchronicities. 

Tama Kieves 

Fantastic. Woo-hoo you get it.  

Lorne Brown 

If you don’t have to struggle through these changes, right? Yes. You don’t have to struggle. So I want to quote something from your book, tell me if I misquoted you, but it’s related to this because people are constantly trying to get out of the discomfort. And I get that. No, that’s the opportunity for growth rather than post-traumatic stress disorder. Your book is teaching us post-traumatic growth opportunities.

We see this in, there’s mirrors of everything in our lives. We have to break down the muscle through exercise for it to grow stronger, right?

Tama Kieves 

Yes.

Lorne Brown

I’m sure when breakdown, when our cells divide the DNA, the chromosomes have to separate. There is a breakdown, and then they replicate and they fold up again. I wonder if the cells are going, oh my God, I don’t want this. Or maybe they’re smart enough to go and woo-hoo something. Exactly. But that’s no point. Why does the caterpillar go, oh my God, I’m turning into liquid. And then it’s a butterfly. So we see this in life everywhere. And so

Tama Kieves

Yes

Lorne Brown 

This evolution could be, if you resist it, you amplify the discomfort. It’s the Buddhist expression that, and you block it and

Tama Kieves 

You block the growth.

Lorne Brown

Buddhism says, pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

Tama Kieves 

Amen.

Lorne Brown 

So if you have an event that you don’t like, if you resist it, you now create suffering. But you could have the pain without the suffering, and therefore

Tama Kieves :

Do you create suffering? You literally shut down your neurochemistry, you shut down your creativity, your openness. So I’m curious, what was the quote you were going to read? Because I got all,

Lorne Brown 

I got it all highlighted. Okay. Because it’s related to what we’re talking about. The path of empowerment begins when you feel defeated. I stop resisting the difficulty. Painful emotions are opportunities to grow. And you can have both at the same time. So I’m putting here you can have pain and where I’m at, so this is where it’s my accepting what is right? Yes. And you say, faith of where I’m going again

Tama Kieves 

Right? Yes. That was really a transformation. It’s one of the reasons I write, because in all my books I have, this book healed me. I have to tell you, when I was writing this book, it was just like it really, really healed something in me. And that particular passage, I have a whole chapter on resistance because I feel a lot of that. Sometimes I’ll feel defeated or I’ll feel broken, or I’ll feel I don’t want this or that same thing of like, oh God, this again, really this one, I thought I healed this 400 times ago.

Lorne Brown 

I can’t tell you how many of my clients and patients say that. And that’s my biggest smile. I’ve done it too, right? Yeah, I’ve worked this 500 times. But to me, it’s like I now have the attitude like, oh, good, I don’t have to find a new story. I know this story. I know this movie. I know this movie. Sure, let’s do it. Let’s do, I was four years old,

Tama Kieves 

And of course the same story is coming up. That’s the core one. So for me, in that passage, it was such an awakening to realize I could have both things at the same time. I could have the discomfort of the pain and not resist it. I could have mercy for the pain. I could be not making myself wrong for it. I could be merciful about it. I could be kind, and I could have absolute faith, absolute faith that, oh, this is good.

Lorne Brown 

And then you say, struggle is the light breaking through. And so like you said, you’re blocking it. The light’s trying to go through,

Tama Kieves

Damn, I’m good. Did I say the struggles of light breaking through? I like that. 

Lorne Brown 

That’s a good one.

Tama Kieves 

I know people read my books back to me all the time. I’m like, shoot, where was that? Now I need that now

Lorne Brown 

I know you channel it. I’m sure it comes through you. Right? And that idea, the willingness that you share, the willingness to believe before believing, right? I can’t remember the author now, but there’s that expression, I’ll believe it when I see it.

They say, no, you’ll see it

Tama Kieves 

When you believe it. Yes.

Lorne Brown 

So there’s that aspect of it. But I really care so much out there about spiritual bypass. It’s never been my style of, oh, everything’s beautiful. I’m the one that I can tell you there’s a part of me that does not like this and I’m willing to accept it. But does accepting, which

Tama Kieves 

Is beautiful, that is the definition of love. If I am willing to really just accept where I am, that is love.

Lorne Brown

But accepting doesn’t mean you like it. Or because acceptance or letting go, those words are used interchangeably. Does letting go mean giving up then? Because people, I don’t want to give up on my dream. I don’t want to accept this. So can we unpack a bit what we mean from the course of miracles and from your work? What’s the purpose of letting go? What’s the purpose of accepting

When that logical mind says, I don’t want to accept this, this is not right, or I don’t want to give up.

Tama Kieves 

Yes. Really great, great question. Deep question. And I think, so in a course in Miracles, it would say that we do not perceive our own best interests. We do not perceive our own best interests. So in my script of life, everybody would do exactly what I want all the time. That would be the definition of happiness and success. Everybody would do exactly what I want all the time, 24/7, and then I can be happy. That might not be my best interest. That might not be where I grow. That might be in my ego’s best interest, but my soul might be going, yeah, she could do a little better. Maybe this is going to be good for her. To Michael Beckwith, I think saying something like a bad day for the ego is a good day for the soul. So to your point about giving up, it’s just for me, the way I look at it is it’s a willingness to say maybe, I don’t know, maybe I don’t know.

I have an opinion that it would be better if everybody just loved me and did everything I wanted. I have an opinion that I should get that speaking engagement and that would be the best thing in the world, but maybe, I don’t know, maybe I don’t know what’s really going on. So giving up might just be a willingness. And of course of miracles, it would say a willingness to see things differently, just a willingness. And by the way, when we do it in a course of miracles, it’s not positive thinking. It’s not like, and then I slap a positive interpretation on it. It’s not like I go, oh, and this is really good because blah, blah, blah. It’s not that. All I have to do is I’m open to willingness. I’m willing to see this differently. I’m willing to say maybe I don’t know what’s going on. And that’s when my intuition can come in. That’s when something deeper can finally get through. Because while I absolutely know, and I have this opinion, and it’s got to be this way, and this is bad, this is wrong. Nothing else can come through. And to your point also about letting go, it is the willingness to say, maybe there’s something larger here.

Maybe there’s a bigger reality than just my little mind that maybe there is something larger that’s going on and I’m willing to believe that I’ll be shown, or I’ll be guided or I’ll be whatever. And when I give up, I don’t give up as in defeat, right? Like, oh, well, that’s it. I guess that’s it, right? I’ll use the example of a speaking engagement. I might still come back and say, Hey, I really think this would be a great fit for you, blah, blah, blah. I might do the real world things, but I give up my resistance. I give up that I have to have this.

Lorne Brown

You’re no longer attached. That creates resistance. No longer attached.

Tama Kieves 

Thank you. Thank you.

Lorne Brown 

Yeah. Because when you’re attached to it, so you want it, you’ll take action to achieve it. And if you don’t get it, you’re okay.

Tama Kieves 

Yes, yes. I love your story about the employee leaving and then nothing was happening for you. You’re still disappointed or you’re still like, gee, I wish this were otherwise, but I don’t have to get triggered. All we’re talking about is

Lorne Brown 

I was so happy because I forgot about it. I was like, Hey, I don’t feel anything. That’s amazing. I was like, this used to bother me. And I’ve heard this through my teaching and I’ve experienced it multiple times, different things that used to bother me. And then all of a sudden the thing happens, and I know how that used to trigger me.

Tama Kieves 

That is awesome.

Lorne Brown 

And I still intellectually do not like it, but I have no visceral response. I’m not going into a sympathetic fight or flight limbic system. I’m staying whole brain. And so now I’m prepared to take right action versus action from fear and lack,

Tama Kieves 

Bam. And that moment is like, wow, like you said, this works. I want to do more. I want to practice more. We are literally changing who we’ve been. We’re literally changing our possibilities.

Lorne Brown 

Ecker totally says you can be at peace in an unhappy situation. That’s an example of that. And so what I got from your book, because I’m not a fan of the spiritual bypass that everything, your ego, if your ego’s happy all the time, right? Well then what are you doing here? Right? I learned from this that life will still happen, but how you perceive it will change and you can be at peace in an unhappy situation. Your partner can leave you. You could have an illness. The government you don’t like gets elected.

All these things can happen that you don’t like, and you’re not at a somatic visceral response to.

Tama Kieves 

Amen. That’s exactly right.

Lorne Brown

You’re at peace in an unhappy situation. And at that moment, there’s no resistance. So flow receptivity, you’re still connected. And eventually when consciousness wants to move through you, you are available. And that inspired thought will come through you, and there goes the right action. That’s my choose again, because now choose again, could be not acting Ecker to say it perfectly. The way I summarized it from Ecker Toley, he says, once you’re present, and I get this from your book as well, once you’re present,

You can consciously remove yourself from the situation. You can consciously change or improve the situation. You sent another note, I think I’d be a great speaker for this and if you cannot remove yourself or change or improve, you can continue to surrender to what is except what is. Because in that moment, you can be at peace in an unhappy situation. At that moment you’re available. And eventually flow will flow through you to inspire thought, and then the action will happen. But it doesn’t have to happen at that moment.

Tama Kieves 

And I think that’s so important because what you’re talking about is not making your identity rest on any one circumstance. My identity doesn’t change because somebody says no to me, doesn’t mean my identity changes.

And one of the reasons I’m so passionate about this and the heart of all my work is that I love helping people find their calling, live their calling, give their genius to this planet, give their gifts to this planet. Be unstoppable in giving your gifts to this planet, not limit yourself in what you are here and meant to do at any time. And to do that, it means having a different relationship with yourself. And it’s what we’re talking about, I think, which is that circumstances are going to happen. Some circumstances are going to happen because they are here to grow you. They are here to catapult you into something even better and more empowered in yourself. When you said, when you had that moment of doing it differently, oh my God, that’s an even better moment than any other moment. And so what we’re learning is to own our identity, to own our relationship to ourselves, so that life may not go my way at different times.

This is life, but I don’t get stopped. I don’t get hooked. And I don’t start making everything mean something about me or negative about me. And again, because I’m in the sphere of helping people live that calling, go for their dreams, go for their desires, go for what they’re meant to do on this planet, because we will all have so many resources that we don’t even know we have, right? Because that’s the fun part of this. When you start going to be peaceful in an unhappy situation, that’s when resources you don’t even know you have come through. So I love what you’re saying

Lorne Brown 

In your book. You talk about getting out of yourself and to get into a state of receiving, you get into a state of giving. I think you talk about giving prosperity, it’s prosperous to the ego when you give, oh, I’m giving, look how me, I’m a great person. Or maybe I’ll get something in return. But it’s empowering to the soul. And you talked about your orthodox background and some of my studies in the past with Kabbalah, they talk about levels of giving, and there’s a couple levels here. And one level is given to get, which they said is still good. It’s just vibrationally not as high as just giving for the sake of giving for no reason. When you just give,that’s what I got when I was reading that chapter in your book when you’re talking about your giving and it makes you open to receiving and how it’s, yeah, it could be prosperous to the ego, but it’s so empowering to the soul. It reminded me of that Kabbalah lesson

Tama Kieves

Yes

Lorne Brown 

When you’re just giving because it’s the right thing to do. And the act of giving was so selfless. It wasn’t for you. But yet you get so filled up from it

Tama Kieves 

You got it, you got it. And it’s like I tell a story in the book. I tell a lot of stories in the book about that selfless giving, which I was resistant to by the way, because I know that sounds good, but I’m more like, my ego is like, well, what am I going to get? Why do I always have to be the nice person? Why do I always have to be the person who grows? Why can’t they grow? But my own healing, I won’t tell this story too long, but just a quickie version of it. I had a lot of issues with my mother wanting expectations of my mother to be a certain way and be different or whatever. And I had this day where it was literally this energy came through me or just something else where I decided I was going to give it to her.

I was going to give to her everything I had wanted her to give to me. I was going to stop being in this victim mode of, but she didn’t give me this and dah, dah, and she doesn’t get me whatever. I’d literally heard an inner voice, a voice of guidance that said, whoever is stronger in the lifetime, will be the one who loves whoever is stronger in the lifetime will be the one who loves. And it was this instruction that in this lifetime, for whatever reason, I was stronger or healthier, and it was my job to love her. And so I had a time where I helped her clean her closet out, and she was resistant. She was a hoarder and she had tons of stuff or whatever, and I was so patient and so loving and so giving and stayed there, and I wasn’t doing it to get anything.

I just felt like my mother had never had anybody who loved her in a certain way. I have been privileged to have people who’ve been kind to me in my life at different times and something in me like Rose and stopped being the victim and stopped going, but she’s not this way to me, and I never learned. And it just happened, and it was probably one of the highest moments of my life because it was this thing. When we give selflessly, and it’s not, you can’t make yourself do it. I can’t go, okay, that’s it. I’m going to make myself do this. But when we start deciding with other people, we’re going to be the people. We are going to be the people we wish they would be. We wish humanity would be. When I come from that selflessness, I’m touching my spirit, I’m touching my energy, I’m touching my, I was high that day. I was like, wow, who is this chicken? I like her. It’s like, I want to be that person in the world.

Lorne Brown 

Well, from your book, that’s the sense I get is that the tools that you share in the book are how you get received. That’s how you’re getting filled up. And now that you’re filled up, you have the resources to go and give to others. It’s not that I’m going to give and this person has to give back to me. It’s not like on the ego level, you’re really soulful. You’ve been filled up through this work because people, there’s this myth that if I become present and conscious and I don’t have these strong needs and desires, then nothing will get done in the world. Just so happy sitting on the mountain top. But from reading your book and hearing your story, my experience as well is that it’s the opposite When you fill yourself up, so you are getting soulful, it becomes overflowing, and then all of a sudden that inspired thought leads you to go clean out your mother’s closet

Without needing her to acknowledge or give it back. You’re doing that with yourself, like you said at the beginning. You’re taking up a relationship with yourself, so you’re not looking for it from your children, from your partner, from your employer, from society. Here’s my metaphor for this. This is what I share with my patients all the time. We’re all walking around like glasses of water, and when somebody fills up your water, it fills good. And if somebody’s taking your water, it’s neediness. It doesn’t feel good. But if you follow the tools in your book, for example, you’re now under the faucet.

Tama Kieves

Yes.

Lorne Brown 

Your glass is filled up constantly from the faucet. Constantly. You’re hooked up and you’re overflowing so much that you may not even be able to perceive or notice somebody taking your water because as fast as they take it, you’re filled up. 

Tama Kieves

You get it. 

Lorne Brown

And so your book to me is a way to turn on the faucet so you are filled up and now you don’t need it from all the other glasses out there because you’re getting it through your own relationship with yourself, which is your higher self.

Tama Kieves 

Yes, beautiful.

Lorne Brown 

Your book

Tama Kieves 

You have to go on tour with me. You said it better than I can say it.

Lorne Brown 

I understand your book well

Tama Kieves (

And it’s such a beautiful thing for all of us to learn because we have spent so much time in our lives, wasted so much time in our lives trying to change other people, trying to change circumstances, and again, we change the relationship with ourselves and man, everything starts to change. It’s awesome.

Lorne Brown

When you do the inner work, the external world starts, one of two things happen. Your perception of the external world changes. So now you’re not affected by it because you see it differently. Your lenses change.

The second thing sometimes happens is the actual external world changes. It actually has a shift to match your internal world. But even if it doesn’t, you’re okay because your perception has changed. As we wrap up, I have to do a Star Trek question for you, and then I want to learn more about where they find you about your online courses, your books and all that. But I heard somewhere that you like StarTrek, right? Did I hear that?

Tama Kieves 

I love Star Trek. I don’t remember writing about it.

Lorne Brown 

No. So, well, it’s on my brain here. Which Star Trek. Did you do the Next Generation?

Tama Kieves 

I’m an original Star Trek girl, and then I’m a next generation girl.

Lorne Brown 

Okay

Tama Kieves 

Yes.

Lorne Brown 

So third question, did you ever watch the Picard series that came out?

Tama Kieves 

No, I did not.

Lorne Brown 

Okay. So for all of our Star Trek fans that did the Next Generation, and for You Tamma, it’s three seasons. Okay? Because it’s 30 years after the next generation, so all the characters come back. But I wrote a blog called Integrating Our Light and Shadow lessons from Star Trek. I got to tell you a little experience because of your book reminding me of this about not being afraid of our fears, the fear of that, these uncomfortable feelings that if we can use the tools that you share in your book to face them, they get metabolized. There’s alchemy that happens. So I’m in a meditative state. I’m meditating and I’m practicing in the meditation I’m doing letting go and surrender, and I’m having a beautiful experience after going through the not so beautiful experience in the meditation of Serenity because the uncomfortable feelings come up. I practice being with them, and then all of a sudden I have memories of an episode on Bacard season three, where data and lore, if you remember, data Lords, his evil twin, they have this interaction and what ends up happening is data gives all of his memories to lore. Afterwards, there was a surrender that happened. Data did a full surrender. And in that, him and lore, there’s a oneness that happened when he fully surrendered. The ego is dark. He did not ostracize the ego. He did not try to destroy the ego. The light absorbed, the light embraced it, gave the darkness all the light, and in that it became all light again. But it was integrated.

Tama Kieves 

Yes

Lorne Brown 

In that meditation, I was like, oh my God, the writers of Star Trek are awakened. They are totally getting consciousness and the whole process of surrender. So guess what happens after my meditation, I go to Google and I ask what the title of that episode is called. So episode Picard, season three. The title of the episode is Surrender. So I have a blog on my thing called Integrating our Light and Shadow lessons from Star Trek. I’m going to send that to you, but please watch Picard. And when you see episode, season three, episode eight, it’s about surrendering your book. All the conscious teachers, you’re one of the conscious teachers. They’re all giving us tools on how to surrender. To me, that’s the secret sauce. When you drop the resistance, you’re no longer blocking your higher self. And so everybody’s teaching surrender. Surrender is not giving up. Surrender is a form of giving in and of accepting.

Tama Kieves 

It’s so weird that you’re saying this, by the way, because when this book came out, learning to trust yourself, my personal work was I dedicated my life to surrender. Before this book came out. I just thought, I don’t know what needs to happen with this. I certainly have my ambitions and my dreams, but it’s just like I want to surrender to it all this time. I want to be on the wild ride. I want to not lose myself. I want to be awakened in myself no matter what happens. And then it’s been, and I have to tell you, it has been the best year of my life. It’s been amazing. That’s what

Lorne Brown 

All she is conscious like yourself. That’s the message. And then what you guys are doing. So what Tam’s doing, everybody, and in her books and in her latest is she’s teaching us how to surrender because people go, I don’t want to surrender. We all get it. We all guess the same Z. We’re the same.

Tama Kieves 

And to your point, which I love that you made, is that we’re joining both things, the left brain, the right brain. I am, I’m a critical thinker. I am ambitious. I’m an achiever, and I’m working with consciousness and surrender. So it’s really important to have role models of people who are doing both, who are not just, I mean, I love all kinds of spirituality, but I have a hard time if somebody is was saying just

Tama Kieves 

I can’t do that. I needed to fight with this right

Lorne Brown 

Yeah, practical. Well, look, I have professionals mostly that come in that I see a lot of professionals. They have that block. We have that block. So we need to do a little bit of work. Or as Ellie says, my friend Ellie calls it undoing to get into the beingness. And your book is that book. So I want to thank you, Tamma, for writing all five of the books so far. The last one being learning to trust yourself. How do we find you? If we want to know about your books, your online classes, what do you offer to help with the evolution of consciousness on an individual global level?

Tama Kieves 

I think first of all, if people are interested in this with me, one of the best things you can do is take a Course in Miracles class with me online. I have a brand new one coming up called Your Brave New Life with a Course in Miracles in January. It’s on my website. You can just go out to tekes.com, the mothership, you’ll get everything. Make sure you get the best tool because that will get you on the newsletter if you want. Or you can just go to tamakieves.com forward slash I think it’s Fortune dash cookie or something like that. So anyways, the best way to get a hold of me, of course, is through the website, I’m on social media daily on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, you name it, if you do Facebook, my page was hacked. It’s not just my name anymore. So the new page is Facebook Tama Kieves author.

But seriously, I’m just encouraging people to join me. I have a community of thousands and thousands of people who are living in inspiration instead of fear. And I think it’s really important to get around other people who hold you to this, to help you to this. So I have a lot of different online classes and they’re alive with me. And also I do retreats all over the country and different parts of the world in speaking engagements. Of course, I’m always looking to share these concepts with people. But seriously, I would love to hear from you because the most important thing you’re going to do in this lifetime is to trust yourself and to trust the desires that are in you, the genius that’s inside you, what you are meant to do here. Because I know for all of us, we’ve just scratched the surface. We’ve just scratched the surface. I always tell my clients, my coaching clients, you’re so much more powerful than you know, but it’s only when we trust ourselves. So thank you

Lorne Brown 

And Tama’s book, we’ll give you a guide on how to trust yourself.

Tama Kieves 

Oh, I forgot to mention my books. Duh. So all my books are on Amazon, and then there’s also some of my books on my website@tamakieves.com/books, but everything’s on Amazon and you can get it. Everything’s everywhere, so you can always get it there. So yeah, pick a copy of Learning to trust yourself. I would love to hear from you. I would love to hear from you how it’s going. And learning to trust yourself has a million resources in it too. It’s got a thing that you can download that has all kinds of meditations and other free classes within it, so it’s just a great resource.

Lorne Brown

Tama, thank you very much for today.

Tama Kieves 

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you so much for the work you’re doing and the light that you’re bringing. It’s amazing. Thank you.

Lorne Brown 

Thank you. Thank you for spending this time with us on the Coherence Code podcast. I’m Dr. Lorne Brown, and I will see you next week for another conversation on coherence and healing. If this conversation resonated with you, please like, subscribe or follow the show and also share it with someone who might benefit from it as well. Remember to take a moment to breathe, reflect and stay connected. Welcome to the Coherence Code Podcast.